Customer Service is Marketing: How to Integrate Pre- and Post-Sale

hello and welcome to the modern customer
podcast I'm your host Blake Morgan today
my guest is Alan dibb the best-selling
author of the book the one page
marketing plan the book was a number one
best-selling book it's an international
bestseller and has been for the last
four years Alan helps businesses all
over the world develop and improve their
marketing capabilities using the one
page marketing plan framework in the
past Allen has started grown and
successfully exited multiple businesses
in various Industries Alan grew his
previous business from startup to four
years later being named by Business
Review weekly as one of Australia's
fastest growing companies
today we talk about how customer service
and contact center leaders can be more
Savvy about marketing and how marketers
can better understand what happens in
the post sales experience please enjoy
Alan dibb
[Music]
Alan welcome to the modern customer
podcast all the way from Melbourne is it
really early morning right now for you
at 7 00 am but it's it's Tuesday so I'm
in the future oh you are you're in the
future how is Tuesday are going so far
from future is bright oh good
so
my audience we were just chatting before
the podcast started customer service
professionals contact center leaders
what are some of the common questions
that you get as a marketer from this new
world where now leaders are having to
Market to customer service and they're
having to straddle the worlds of contact
center and marketing do you have any
frequently asked questions you get
yeah I I love that um you know you're
working with professionals who are in
customer service so a lot of people feel
like hey customer service the
marketing's already been done right
you've got the customer you've got the
sale the the marketing's already been
done and I think
um it's great that people are thinking
now more and more about how do we sell
to existing customers how do we create a
world-class experience how do we get
more frequency more volume move people
to a higher level of service so one of
the one of the things that a lot of
people
don't understand is that the bulk of the
the revenue and the bulk of the value
that you'll get from a customer is after
they've become a customer so the
lifetime value and really increasing
that lifetime value over time and being
able to deliver a world-class experience
so that it's easy to get referrals it's
easy to get really good reviews it's
easy to get really positive testimonials
from a client and those are things that
are created real virtuous cycle since
you're the marketing expert what are
some common misunderstandings about
modern marketing that you wish that
people would understand
yeah one of the biggest things we work
on is and you'll notice uh so I've got a
process called the one-page marketing
plan where literally in a single page
you can create a marketing plan and it's
very much by design that the very first
block of that marketing plan is target
market right who are our people who are
the people that we're going to serve and
you know most business owners and most
people say everyone hey our product is
awesome we can serve everyone right
everyone is in our in our target market
and that's a huge huge mistake because
if you say to everyone it's really no
one because so you you need to figure
out who are your people who are the
people that we're going to serve which
also implies who are not our people who
are not our ideal clients and who are
people we're not actually going to go
after
right absolutely I feel like that's so
important in life even just for yourself
everybody watching listening like who
what is for me what is not for me and
then getting really clear on that what I
love about this one page idea in your
book you know one one page of marketing
is that I know that's not the actual
book name but that's the idea of the
book is condensing complication chaos
down to a beautiful simple piece of
strategy that's just very clear can you
just talk about your book and what
actually should be on that one page
marketing plan
yeah a long time ago a mentor taught me
and it's really stuck with me that we
get paid as entrepreneurs for
simplifying the complex that's our job
so regardless of what you do what
industry you're in you're there to
simplify the complex so you know when
when we think of you know wildly
successful startups like an Uber and or
Airbnb and so on they simplified the
complex right so now you push a button
and their car arrives at your location
so it's simplified something that was a
lot more complex it removed steps so
that to me is really the Core Essence of
what we do as entrepreneurs and so
um the book came about because from my
own marketing struggles so I was at dead
broke it geek struggling to get clients
in the door and you know I read every
book I went to every seminar I did
coaching and I I learned it via trial
and error and you know I'm a I'm an
engineer by training so to me the way I
think about the world is in processes
and Steps step one you do this step to
do you do that step three you do this
and you should get a pretty reliable
outcome and so I was very frustrated
that
as far as I could tell there was nothing
out there that gave me that step-by-step
like here you know nothing follow these
steps and that's how you'll create a
marketing system that actually works and
so I had to learn through trial and
error and taking little bits and pieces
from here and there and adding them
together and so for that reason I wrote
the book that I wish I had and the
process that I wish I had when I was
first learning marketing I think that's
why it's resonated with a lot of people
because it's something that can take
someone from zero and literally in the
in the book we assume nothing we
literally Define what is marketing what
is a brand and really very very simply
outline how to go from knowing
absolutely zero about marketing to
having a sophisticated marketing plan in
the end so that's really the origin of
the book and
why I felt like uh putting it together
in one page was just the best way
because most marketing plans are super
complex super long you need a consultant
all of those sorts of things and so if
we have a one-page marketing plan that
makes it really easy to update it's
something that we can share with our
team we can share with our suppliers and
vendors they're getting a new website
great hopefully your web developers
asking you who your target market is
about your messaging about how you're
reaching your clients and so great you
can share with them your one-page
marketing plan really really easy to do
on so because you mentioned it you said
that one of the things you do step one
is you just simply ask with the reader
like what is marketing what is branding
can we do that exercise together right
now
of course all right so well I'll let you
let me ask you what what what do you
when you hear the word marketing or when
you hear the word branding what what
comes to your mind what do you what do
you think of
for Branding that's more of uh
intangible but for me it's similar to
customer experience it's
how are you making the customer feel and
I like to break it down really simple
like oh it's a Vibe like that's not a
very business-minded term but what is
the vibe you create for a customer and
then when we think of marketing
obviously we're just generating
awareness how do we generate an
awareness and demand for our product and
that can vary a lot for people like us
you know we're authors and speakers to
like Coca-Cola to a retailer to an auto
body shop so that can range quite a bit
how do I do
you did you did you did very well I'll
give you I'll give you my couple of
simple definitions so
and I'll actually I'll read this little
paragraph straight out of the book where
where literally the The Heading is what
is marketing because a lot of people
confuse marketing and branding and and
uh a lot of times we we've all been
confused into thinking this is much more
difficult and complicated than it really
is it's really simple like
um as I said uh it's very easy to make
something more complex it's really hard
to make things simpler and so
um really that's my job is to help uh
simplify the complex so here's what I
wrote in my book which I'll just read
the little paragraph which gives you a
basically a jargon-free definition of
marketing so if the circus is coming to
town and you paint a sign saying circus
coming to the showground Saturday that's
advertising if you put the sign on the
back of an elephant and walk it into
town that's promotion if the elephant
walks through the mayor's flower bed and
the local newspaper writes a story about
it that's publicity and if you get the
matter laugh about it that's public
relations if the town citizens go to the
circus spend a lot of money have a lot
of fun ask questions and then and then
spend a lot of money that's sales and if
you plan the whole thing that's
marketing so really marketing is the
strategy that we use to get our ideal
clients to know us like us and trust us
enough to become a a customer so we're
looking for ideal clients and we want
people to know us like us and try trust
us to to buy from us so all the other
stuff that we often associate with
marketing the advertising the social
media all these things these are tactics
and these are important but I think
um it's really important to know okay
what is marketing it's really about
getting our ideal audience to know us
like us and trust us so now we've got a
a definition and we can think about okay
great who is our ideal audience and then
okay what's the process we can take them
through so that they'd get to know us so
that they know that we exist so they get
to like us and trust us and so they get
to buy from us for the first time and
then of course get to buyers from us
repeatedly refer new people to us Ascend
to our higher level programs and and so
on
I love that that wow what a mic drop
like at storytelling I love that so much
um and I think that's why your book has
resonated and sold so well because like
we really just need Simplicity with
these things when we think about where
does customer experience fit in all of
those things with the elephant do you
have an answer
absolutely so really uh customer
experience and and in fact I've
dedicated one-third of the marketing
plan to what I call the after phase
which is very much customer experience
so uh I've split up the if you if you're
looking visually or thinking visually
the one-page marketing plan is nine
blocks so three block so we've got a
before phase so that's the before phases
before anyone knows you even exist so
that's what you do with your messaging
with your advertising with your social
media whatever then there's the during
phase that's when someone's kind of
raised their hand and they look saying
look I'm vaguely interested in what
you've got to offer and that might be
maybe they clicked on your ad maybe they
phoned into your office maybe they uh
interacted with your social media post
they're like this seems interesting tell
me more I want to know more and so
that's the during phase and then there's
the after phase which is very much what
your audience uh live in and work in and
that's really taking someone who's
purchased for the first time and we've
got three blocks dedicated to that after
phase number one is deliver a
world-class experience so how can they
have an amazing experience where we're
turning people from being just customers
to raving fans and then the the second
block of the after phase is how do we
increase customer lifetime value how do
we get them to buy in more volume more
frequency higher quality whatever's
relevant in your business and finally
orchestrating and stimulating referrals
so how do we get people who love what we
do and get to orchestrate and stimulate
referrals so that kind of indicates it's
a it's not a passive thing most people
hope and pray for referrals and you know
sometimes it happens sometimes it
doesn't but how can we be more
intentional and orchestrate and
stimulate referrals indicating that it's
something active that we do so that
whole after phase is completely
dedicated to people listening right now
and working in those phases every single
day which is really the most important
part of the plan
I think there's something going on now
where the people involved in with the
elephant in the beginning really want to
understand more what's happening in the
after phase in the after phase people
also want to be more involved what's
happening in the pre-sales phase because
if these two don't work together there's
a disconnect for the customer when a
customer calls a contact center and says
oh I got this promotion and contact
center says what promotion what are you
talking about and there's just so many
broken experiences because of these
miscommunications and breakdowns
um I just keep thinking of this elephant
in the elephant's Journey the elephant
in the ring yes so what advice do you
have for for these two siled groups that
the pre-sale the post sale how can they
better collaborate together this is so
important and you really brought up
something super super important because
um as you say I mean how often have we
have you and I been a customer of a
product or a company or whatever and you
know sales made all of these big Grand
promises then there's literally no
Handover to delivery or customer service
or post-sale support and you're like
hang on I was promised all of those
things or this was supposed to be
included or whatever else and now you're
having an argument and it's completely
destroyed that customer experience and
conversely
um we've probably all been customers
where the Handover was very very smooth
reminds me my friend uh Joey Coleman
wrote a book never lose a customer again
and he talks about it I'm reading it
right now by the way oh perfect perfect
yeah so really good book it talks about
how important the first hundred days of
a client uh onboarding is right so the
Handover from your sales team to your
customer service team and so on so
because that's going to that's really
going to frame your relationship with
them long term and so if if you've
completely messed up that first hundred
days that's gonna you're starting the
relationship on a pretty poor note and
clients will leave clients will churn
clients will have buyers regret or
buyers remorse so really really
important to have a very smooth
onboarding experience and a very smooth
Handover from your sales team to
customer service and so that you're
fulfilling those promises nothing worse
than you know unfulfilled promises uh
especially when uh you know a sale has
been made based on that and there's very
little Handover very little you know
continuity from there so I don't see
those things as different as the sales
department being different from the
customer service I think they really
need to be very well integrated a lot of
good communication and importantly both
sales and customer service have deep
deep insights into the customer like
what is what are the fears the customer
has what are the frustrations they have
why are they buying our product rather
than the competitor what are some of the
what are some of the things that are
holding them back what are what are some
of the objections we're getting or what
are some of the complaints that we're
getting this is super super valuable
data that's used in the product
development process in the marketing
process because a lot of times the work
that my team and I do is figuring out
some of the messaging with our clients
so and where we start is literally we
say hey let's pull up your help desk I
want to have a look at your customer
service tickets I want to see what are
people complaining about what are people
saying is really awesome because a lot
of times the people the folks in
marketing and sales don't even know
they're like hey people are buying our
product because of this feature and
we're selling this other feature or you
know people are are really concerned
about this thing but we're talking about
that other thing so what we want to do
is what I call entering the conversation
going on in the mind of our ideal
Prospect so what are they dreaming about
what are they fearing what are they
hoping for and so this is stuff that
people in customer service have at their
fingertips they know exactly they're on
the pulse of why people are buying the
product why people are not buying the
product why people are asking for
refunds or complaining what are their
fears frustrations dreams all of those
things this is such such important Intel
and so you've got the ability to share
that with your sales team your product
development team very very vital
but that's interesting so when you start
working with a client you actually go to
the support tickets and you say what are
the biggest offenders basically
absolutely because I I want to know
um first of all I want to know do we
have a leaky bucket so are we are we
making sales but we're losing people on
the other end because of some unfilled
filled promise or maybe there's a
problem with the product or maybe we've
just sold the the right product but to
the wrong people so there's a mismatch
in terms of hey we're actually selling
the wrong the right product but to the
wrong wrong people
um do we have a positioning issue so
we're people expecting like a high-end
product but they've got a mid-range
version or or the other way around maybe
people uh you know paying a low cost but
they're getting something that wow they
they didn't expect so I want to know
people who are at your buyers of our
product what do they think about it and
we conduct interviews with them as well
we want to figure out hey what do you
like about this company and what do you
you know what are some of the challenges
that you've experienced so we want to
fix any leaky buckets that exist and
then we that's the best way to tap into
the mind of a prospect people who've
actually bought and so what was your
thought process what what what one of
the questions we often ask someone who's
bought is what almost made you not buy
like what were your you know there's
always those two or three little
objections you're like
I'm not sure but you got over the line
but what were those things because
chances are there's thousands of other
people who've had the same objection and
not bought as well
so what are the results of a client
doing an exercise like this like what do
they get when they actually dig into
these these questions
it's very very eye-opening and a lot of
times the Business Leaders have no idea
of what's going on inside of the the
customer service side of things and
there sometimes they're very shocked
about what's going on some of the
Band-Aid kind of
um the solutions that are being applied
and things like that so often they're
embarrassed and they're shocked but
sometimes they're also pleasantly
surprised they're like hey I didn't
realize customers value this part of our
product like we keep getting really good
feedback about you know this part of our
product or this part of our service in
which case there's a missed opportunity
there we should be talking about that in
our sales and in our marketing so it it
goes both ways but I I think every
business leader should spend some time
every month answering help desk and
support tickets and being on the
customer service line that's one of the
best ways to really be on the pulse of
what's actually happening in your in
your business
do you think there's a culture shift or
a culture difference in a company where
the leaders are happy to do this versus
where leaders really don't want to be
bothered they felt like I didn't sign up
to work in customer service what's the
difference in culture there
well absolutely I think it's it's hugely
a huge difference so leaders who care
about the customer experience and who
you know are not above spending some
time in customer service and knowing
what's going on with the customer
they're going to have a much much bigger
result so those who feel like they're
above it or don't have time for it
whatever I mean what is more impactful
in your organization than your
relationship with your clients I can't I
really can't think of anything and so to
me the whole role of a CEO or a business
leader is to remove bottlenecks from the
organization so and bottlenecks can be
you know sometimes in sales sometimes in
marketing most of the time when I start
working with a client I'll ask where do
you think the bottleneck is in the
business because if there were no
bottlenecks we would we would be scaling
massively massively fast and most of the
time they say we're not getting enough
leads and we're not getting enough sales
or we're not closing enough or whatever
and then we really start digging into
the numbers and I'm like
you're losing a lot of customers each
each month or each year or whatever I'm
looking at looking at the numbers uh why
do you think that is
um and so
when we start digging in often there is
either a problem with the product or the
way that the product was sold maybe the
product was sold too aggressively to
people who really couldn't afford it or
they just weren't an ideal client or
there's a problem with the product or
the customer service is not great or
whatever else and so really plugging
that leaky bucket is such an important
part of what we do and even though it's
really not marketing right so it really
is not Marketing in the traditional
sense but it really is it's real like
let's get let's get our base sorted
let's plug that bucket before we pour
more water in because we can turn that
tap on we can get that bucket filled up
but it's going to cost a lot if we keep
getting
clients in and then they fall back out
you know some of these big companies
they're so big that it just feels like
to even start digging into the support
tickets it's just such a massive
undertaking do you use any type of
technology to do this or do you just do
it manually
um most mostly it's manually we we look
for recurring patterns really and
they're generally not hard to spot you
know if if I look at a month's worth of
your support tickets start flicking
through I'll usually start seeing
recurring themes pretty often it's like
guys you know I canceled my plan and my
my card got charged again or you know
this is broken or whatever and you start
seeing patterns pretty pretty quickly
um I'm sure that there'd be Technologies
emerging especially with AI and
everything like that where we may be
able to just to suck in the whole months
of tickets and be able to see recurring
patterns I'm sure that's not too far off
I haven't seen anything just yet that
does this but
really it doesn't take a lot of effort
to start reviewing tickets manually and
just seeing even even if you didn't read
the the ticket in full or the the
support desk
replies in full a lot of times they'll
categorize them into their discussions
so this was a cool this was a billing
dispute this was a whatever a complaint
of some sort or some broken product or a
return or whatever so and that can often
tell us a story as well like if you know
90 of our tickets are about
you know a shipping issue or whatever
okay we can now sort of hone into that a
little bit
if you had one message for our audience
one closing message about modern
marketing that so many are just missing
what is one message you could leave us
with before we get into the rapid fire
fund round
um so if there's one message I would
tell people is that no one knows how
good your marketing is before they buy
people only know how good your marketing
is after they buy so what is that your
whole goal especially as someone in
customer service is you you you're in a
marketing role right so before they buy
they don't know how good your product or
service is and so that I think that's a
really really powerful concept to walk
away with the second thing I'll add to
that is everybody's in marketing right
everybody is in sales everybody is in
marketing you know I think anybody in an
organization is authorized to bring in
more sales and more revenue and so
that's a large part of what you do and
you're in the most important part of the
marketing plan in the business so it's
not something that you know it's a big
mistake to think of that as a post sale
kind of thing as an after
after a sale thing no this is something
that's going to retain Revenue retain
clients and potentially increase it over
time all right on let's do a little
rapid fire before we let you go does
that sound fun are you ready sounds
great let's do it okay
all right first question what does your
morning routine look like
um I spend the morning with a start with
a green tea and then I'll read for an
about 40 minutes
wow okay wonderful do you have a unique
leadership hack that helped get you to
where you are today
yep higher only a players I don't work
with b or c players
oh that's that's good what do you do to
relax at the end of a hectic day
um I work out and I I have a forest
nearby where I I love walking
what is your favorite leadership book or
resource
John Maxwell
I like his book I can't remember the the
name I think it's thinking for a change
if I'm not mistaken so he he has some
really really good leadership material I
love his books oh my gosh I'm reading
some right now what's your idea of
perfect happiness perfect Happiness is
when you're not wanting anything else
what is one mental health strategy for
managing hard days
nature
what is your favorite type of vacation
an active vacation doing things hiking
getting out there and seeing things
awesome if you could have lunch with
anyone Dead or Alive who would it be I
think it's um
it's probably a very stereotypical but I
I would have loved to have met the jobs
if you had to describe your outlook in
one quick motto what would it be just do
it
I love that well this has been so fun
and gosh I feel like I need to go to
Melbourne and take one of your workshops
maybe you'll maybe you'll come to Los
Angeles and you'll do like an
entrepreneur workshop and I can take it
you don't have to come to Melbourne we
we did them online all the time so
you're very welcome like okay hey I
might take you up on that I really like
what you had to say today well thank you
so much and if our listeners and viewers
want to get in touch with you or take
any of your courses or content how can
they do that
so the book is the one page marketing
plan it's very popular on audio so it's
on audible.com
um our website is successwise.com you
can join our mailing list and we send
out free free tips every a couple of a
couple of times every week so love to
see everyone there
all right well thank you so much
everyone has been tuning in to the
modern customer podcast until next time
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